21/08/2015

Huggin and buggin. Yeee haaa!



A problem in a society where politics has taken over common sense. Too segregated is America "Yoda" regardless of the propagated rainbow of nations. Hostility isn't a way for fighting what should be considered basic civil rights and common curtesy.




The forse is strong here.
People come from different backgrounds, values, interests, personalities differ by region, personal experiences, many misunderstand each other even when they are saying the same thing. comparisons, perceptions, impressions, preconceived ideas.





Jaymz Lockwood
December 18, 2012
Why do christians think you are taking christ out christmas when you wish them happy holidays? Do they not count new year as a holiday. And only celebrate one holiday this time of the year?
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  • 3 people like this.
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie i guess this can be addressed in a different manner, if you see a christian tell him/her what they want to hear. you see an atheist you tell them theirs. i doubt you would like it if i told you happy christmas, instead of Happy holidays. best not to tell anyone anything, oh this will also cause a misunderstanding. where i come-from muslims celebrate with christians and christians celebrate with muslims. i would love to see what their reaction to Buddhism would be, i am sure we also would meditate with them. Monkey see monkey do. lol in short africans dont take religion seriously they just groove with everyone. too much extremism is a bummer. for us terrorism is something new, and we believe it was deliberately invented. we had a really cool moment where both religions came together in a field and prayed to show the nation that religion has nothing to do with the terror that has taken place. and our people wouldn't respond to newspapers that say christians were killed by muslims. we know someone is fighting for natural resources. bottom line is give to Caesar what is for Caesar and ud be friends with all. cheers
    December 18, 2012 at 5:48pm · Like · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood Well I am Buddhist, and we are closer to Christianity than anything else. But point being, you cant always tell what religion someone is just by looking at them, so by wishing happy holidays, you are wishing everyone no matter what religion they are. A joyous time on both up coming holiday's. But it is only the christians that get upset and say we are in a way neglecting the reason of one of the two holiday's.
    December 18, 2012 at 5:56pm · Unlike · 1
  • David Wagle I've started saying "Merry Hana-Rama-Kwans-mas" to all my over-the-top conservative friends just to irk them smile emoticon
    December 18, 2012 at 6:03pm · Unlike · 6
  • Jaymz Lockwood And for us its Bodhi Day on Dec 8th. The day Siddhartha Gautama became enlightened, and from them on was known as Buddha.
    December 18, 2012 at 6:03pm · Unlike · 3
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie i am also a Buddhist but i dont carry it on my forehead cos thats private to me and i dont forget i have to survive in an environment that has no clue to my faith. my family is a mix of muslim and christian and they always make fun of me and i of them. i think many misunderstand the use of faith vs religion half if not more are lost anyway so i dont pay much attention.
    December 18, 2012 at 6:27pm · Like · 3
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie David i am going to use your style lol
    December 18, 2012 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
  • James Clarke Do "Christians" think this?
    December 20, 2012 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood Im not sure what they think. I just know you always hear taking Christ out Christmas, when you say happy holidays. You never hear a Jewish say you are taking Hon out of honakha, or any other religious group make a similar claim when wishing them a joyous time on up coming holidays.
    December 20, 2012 at 3:15pm · Like · 1

  • David Wagle Let's once again be clear that the radical conservative fundaholic American evangelical anti-intellectual reactionary is not representative of all, or even most, Christians. Even within the USA.
    December 20, 2012 at 4:10pm · Unlike · 2
  • Jaymz Lockwood I can understand that David, so maybe I should just look at it as the extremist of the religion. Just lets their radical beliefs overtake common sense and basic laws of grammer. Seeing how that is what makes them overlook the word holidays being plural aand not singular. Even though that is not the case when it comes to other religious extremist.
    December 20, 2012 at 4:58pm · Unlike · 1
  • Janet Christian The only thing Christian about Christmas is the baby Jesus story (although even that didn't happen this time of year). The Winter Solstice has been celebrated for millennia -- LONG before Christianity was invented.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
  • David Wagle While it is true that Winter Solstice has been celebrated for a long time, Christians placed a specific liturgical celebration on that date. If you want to celebrate the winter solstice, great, but to suggest that Christmas is not an organic part of th...See More
    December 20, 2012 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood yes, Christmas was originally a pagan holiday. The tree, reef, and Santa are also all originally pagan decorations. Which does bring up another question I have about the christian holiday. If they celebrate the birth of christ on that day, why did they choose a pagan holiday and decorations, why do they sing praise more to things like Santa, Frosty, and the flying Mooses (I think they call them somethivng else) instead of Jesus. Isnt that more like worshipping a false idol on that day, instead of worshiping the spiritual guru?
    December 20, 2012 at 5:13pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood * their spiritual guru.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:14pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood I hope im not offending anyone, this is not my intention. My intention is to only understand the way they think and behave this time of year. Obviously I am not christian, but yet only trying to make sense of their culture, so I can better understand my neighbors and the majority of my towns people. Seeing how I now live here in America
    December 20, 2012 at 5:18pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood liturgy? Im sorry but not familiar with that word.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:20pm · Like
  • David Wagle Jaymz, if you're not familiar with liturgy, liturgical calendars, their development and history, then making statements like "Yes Christmas was originally a pagan holiday" probably shouldn't be part of your repertoire. 

    Christmas is part of the Christ    ian liturgical calendar. It's development is far more complex and nuanced than "oh, Christians wanted a holiday so they co-opted an existing one."

    As for things like secular Christmas carols, don't confuse popular cultural investment with the religious observance. Plenty of Christians shake their head at the commercialization of the holiday as well.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood But isnt that what they did. According to studies Jesus was born in late spring. Not during the winter solice. And their decorations were originally used to celebrate a pagans holiday.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:27pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood Do they even have a speecial or spiritual day in the spring for their savior? Again I am only ttrying to better understand my surronding people and their beliefs, nog trying to offend or question their beliefs. Just the way they celebrate them, so this time of year makes a little more sense to me.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:30pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood I know in Buddhism it is wrong to worship a false idol. Thouht the same was in Christianity. But seeing way more things that has to do with the winter solice and not the birth of their savior. Just confuses me, because in a sense they worship more of the false idol than they do the birth of their savior on the day they set aside to celebrate the birth of their savior.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:34pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood Hence why the Zen buddhist will from time burn a statue of buddha to the ground. To show the statue its self is a false idol and not to be worshipped but used as a tool to keep the views in life.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:36pm · Like

  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie Personally regardless of religion one believes in if one can't take a positive greeting, they just plain insecure. I don't see why I or anyone should make me feel guilty about incorrectness. A believer is not a spine less creature. If clearly the person sees you are Buddhist and he don't want your greeting don't irritate your soul, cos its ur religion not the message probably, you have to be discriminating to attitudes not beliefs!
    December 20, 2012 at 5:38pm · Like · 2
  • Jaymz Lockwood I would ask my neighbors these questions, but they are way extreme. And all their answers to my queztions is that I am going to hell and its taboo to question anything from the bible.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:40pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood So of course the understanding from my point of view, never gets anywere.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:42pm · Like
  • Janet Christian David Christmas was specifically placed at the time of the Winter Solstice to coincide with the existing Pagan holiday, just like Easter was placed on the spring Pagan holiday. It is much easier to convert folks to a new religion when you co-opt dates and practices they already know. It's the same reason why most older Christian churches were built atop ancient Pagan temple sites.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:43pm · Like
  • Jaymz Lockwood Ok Janet that I can understand on why they use the date and decorations then. Trying to convert people by using what was already familiar with that time of year. Thank you for that clearafication (sorry if bigger words misspelled not the best at english grammer, still getting that down.
    December 20, 2012 at 5:47pm · Like
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie There is something I read sometime ago! Reprased passage about loving ur neghbour but choose your neigbourhood! Jaymz the only person you shouldn't be confused about is yourself lol
    December 20, 2012 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood All I know is to live with the right view, right speech, right effort, right action, right intention, right livelihood, right mindfulness, and right concentration. And will keep trying to do so.
    December 20, 2012 at 6:20pm · Like · 2
  • Janet Christian Good people don't need a holy book to tell them right from wrong or how to treat other people.
    December 20, 2012 at 6:21pm · Unlike · 3
  • Jaymz Lockwood Thank you everyone for all of your input. And what hopefully helps me understanding, while feeling more out of place this time of year than the rest of the year. Funny how not taking place in others belief can make you feel like a black sheep.
    December 20, 2012 at 6:23pm · Unlike · 1

  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie @Jaymz dear! Living right don't mean you can't be wrong!
    @Amanda weak people don't mean weak realigeon, and not all Humanistic people are always humaniterian, strengts can also be viewed as weakness when applid to the wrong purpose.
    Buddhists are not     all peaceful nor spineless!
    Everything is subjective to the person you face! Every human is flawed and with it everything they say or do. Taking things to absolutes renders one to danger and dangerous acts! Which is why I don't see people as good or bad I deal with the problem at hand!
    December 20, 2012 at 7:18pm · Like
  • David Wagle Janet Christian and where did you get your degree in history from? 

    I am not saying Christians didn't co-opt existing holidays and celebrations. But to suggest there's "nothing Christian" about Christmas misses more than a little bit of the history of     the celebration. Prior to the establishment of a unified liturgical feast day, various bishops celebrated the day across a range of dates. All that we are aware of are in the Winter, btw. I think the range goes from early November to late January. 

    As for your comment about Easter, that's just hilarious. Easter was celebrated on Nissan 14 for a while, but with the move of the Christian liturgical calendar to the Roman calendar, a new method of establishing the start date was required. But Easter actually is one of the more mobile dates on the calendar as there is an attempt to keep the celebration reasonably close to Jewish Passover in order to preserve the heritage. But the Jewish and Gregorian calendars don't exactly line up very well.

    Certainly pagan symbolism was co-opted by Christians, (Christians tend to be very good at that sort of thing) but the celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus is one of the oldest traditions in Christendom.
    December 20, 2012 at 7:27pm · Like · 1
  • David Wagle Amanda Hate from Lutherans? Well, maybe if you say something cross about the church lady's casserole . . .
    December 20, 2012 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood Dont believe anything someone says, not even if I say it. Untill you have looked into it and find it to be true for yourself ---- Buddha
    December 20, 2012 at 8:03pm · Unlike · 2
  • Jaymz Lockwood Thats why I like this page. Even Buddha tells us do not ever blindly follow something like a sheep being led to slaughtered. Ask why and come to your own conclusion based on everything to find your truth.
    December 20, 2012 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
  • David Wagle Often we find that which we seek.
    December 20, 2012 at 8:16pm · Like · 1
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie thats just the way they communicate their faith. same as with any other religion expresses themselves. unfortunately very few posses the skill of tactful communication. dont know but my black people have a rude way of selling the faith. havnt really met a white person who was in my face. russians plainly dont talk about god, even the muslims of russia, in my view how someone interprets the bible is subject to the personality and experiences thy have gone through, which is why you will find a christian who is worse than a muslim, and a muslim that is just as peaceful as budha. in example you could read my posts and see that i dont sound like most Buddhists that you have met, but the life i live and actions i take may be more like my religion, and this is due to living with a muslim mom and christian dad that taking aside living in russia and nigeria and add to it i have a separate culture from my parents called being Coloured. Amanda darling do you know that there are people in america that think that africans are all illiterate, and live on trees cos of the propaganda that has been spread? when we speak of our experiences one needs to position words in such a way that dosnt label all as one. cos thats propaganda in the making, and you cant paint all black cos of 1, 2, or 3. which is why we have so much disputes cos everyone is trying to make everyone fit one box and as people we are innately discriminative. the world is like a blind date, perception is impression.
    December 20, 2012 at 8:19pm · Like · 1
  • David Wagle I find it odd that people reject Christianity because they look at Christians and see the very first doctrine of the faith confirmed.
    December 20, 2012 at 8:24pm · Like · 1

  • Jaymz Lockwood Nothing and nobody should blindly be rejected. Although sometimes for everyone that is easier than asking about it, in order to get some kind of understanding.
    December 20, 2012 at 8:32pm · Unlike · 1
  • Jaymz Lockwood I guess that kinda goes with thw walk a mile in their shoes before you judge their lifestyle.
    December 20, 2012 at 8:34pm · Unlike · 1
  • Janet Christian David I take it you're Christian?
    December 20, 2012 at 9:27pm · Like
  • Matt Powell David Wagle - "very first doctrine of the faith" - please enlighten us. 
    December 20, 2012 at 10:03pm · Like · 1
  • David Wagle Pretty much the first doctrine of the faith about human being is that we are sinners, unworthy of God, and fall short of his glory. Yet, people look at Christians and say "Look at those guys, they're hypocrites, saying we should do one thing and then they go do another."

    What's odd about that, to me, is that I don't know of a single moral system worth following that doesn't leave the majority of followers being hypocrites. Ideals which are trivial to achieve, after all, aren't worth much.

    And Janet, yes, I am. I went to graduate school on a named fellowship to study history and systematic theology -- which is basically the historical and philosophical development of doctrines.
    December 20, 2012 at 10:58pm · Unlike · 1

  • Matt Powell It's intriguing, and quite a delight, to read through this discussion between Buddhists, Atheists, Pluralists, Secular Humanists, and Christians. I try to perceive everyone's point of reference as well as their words.

    David is a learned student of Chr    istianity; he's someone who has dedicated considerable time and effort - years of advanced study with acknowledged and highly acclaimed scholars and teachers, I would guess; so I would encourage those of you who say you really want to understand Christianity to give him ear. I don't know what field he has advanced degrees in - but his posts have always revealed to me that he is a scholar of Christian history, theology, etymology, critical interpretation of scripture, et al, at the Masters and/or PhD level. You can learn a lot from him if you're able to listen to his description of Christian doctrine as credible scholarship, rather than mere apologetics for a system of belief you don't subscribe to or have no proof of.

    In my opinion- which I think is pretty much spot on - most Christians are profoundly ignorant of the meaning behind, and origins of their own religious practices and traditions. Most are entirely unaware of the early Jesus movement which proceeded Christianity becoming a religion, the early Judeo-Christians located near the Sea of Galilee, the roots of Christology as set forth in Paul's epistles, the first Church fathers, the Liturgy, the Didache, The Dessert Mothers and Fathers, the Mystics, and the long history of monks and sisters who - over many centuries - developed the practice of Spiritual Direction. Most American Christians are woefully ignorant of the lectionary, the liturgical calendar, spiritual practices such as Lectio-Devina - just as they are ignorant of most Christian symbols, eschatology, the myriad and ever shifting interpretations that constitute a centuries long dialog that makes up the bulk of Christian scholarship, the nuances of language, the myriad translations. To be sure, most American Christians couldn't demonstrate a coherent understanding of the Gospel narrative itself. Most of them don't even know of the nuanced differences between the four Gospels and who wrote them or what timeframe they were written in or the contextual information that gives life to those narratives.

    To truly understand the Bible, you have to study really hard,,, and there is a lot of 'bad theology' out there. You can't just read the Bible from beginning to end and expect to understand it. It's not about being convinced to believe something that flies in the face of all available evidence at all. The literalist, fundamentalist, shallow, anti-intellectual approach is nothing more than ignorance and superstition. Unfortunately that is an approach taken by far too many. In America at least, this pop culture, Disneyesque, dumbed down version of Christianity is far too pervasive and typical. The crap they say, and the nonsense they believe would not hold up to scrutiny in any respectable school of theology or credible seminary school.

    Whether you disavow Christianity, or you don't - do so on merit, not out of ignorance. Don't take what you see on TV being spewed by ignorant talking heads as representative of what Christianity is. And I'd give David his props for being competent and learned with regard to what is doctrinal and traditional in Christian orthodoxy.
    December 20, 2012 at 11:13pm · Unlike · 2
  • David Wagle Matt thanks for the kind words. I do wish to be clear that though I have put in a lot of hard work, I don't consider myself a scholar of any significant merit. My list of big accomplishments are fairly small, 2 papers and editing of a text published by Oxford U press. After that I found myself having to make a choice between the life of a young academic or having health care for my pregnant wife . . . so I fell back to my undergraduate science degree and research work (math, CS and medicine) to make a living. Now I'm just an over-educated cube monkey who happens to know a few real scholars and can tell the difference between good theology and bad based on how well it tracks to historical norms. 

    All that said, I think you do make a great point that the average Christian is woefully ignorant of their own traditions, history and theology. Even in relatively "high church" denominations the number of people who understand even simple things like the differences between dogma, doctrine and discipline are painfully small. 

    What gets really interesting is how many of the people who clearly don't have that level of understanding achieve leadership positions. I've seen some Catholic bishops do and say things that would make even undergraduate theology students smack themselves in the forehead and say "D'Oh!"

    Part of that has to do with those guys usually are more than a few years removed from formal education, part of it has to do with the focus on business skills and legal expertise over theological acumen, but part of it is simply that even among those who are "churched," the knowledge of the religion both as religious praxis and as formal theology is painfully weak. Modern people are simply too busy and disconnected to really care about what being a member of the community of believers implies or demands. 

    This is, btw, not a new complaint. Kierkegaard complained about it bitterly. His critique of "Christian Nationalism" and "Cultural Christianity" is as important today in reference to the GOP as it was in his own day in reference to the writings of Martensen and Grundtvig,
    December 20, 2012 at 11:35pm · Unlike · 2
  • Matt Powell David - still, you reinforce my point when you say, "I have put in a lot of hard work." I have put in a lot of effort as well. Christianity is not easy to understand. It takes a lot of work. One almost has to be, at least a little bit, scholarly to reach a practical understanding of the Christian faith. So many layers and entanglements to unravel... so much bad theology to unlearn... and yes, I agree with making the distinction between good and bad theology. Too many people of the Church (ecclesia) tolerate the bad - let alone profess it; there is some god-awful theology making the rounds these days.

    I have reached, nay, surpassed my capacity for tolerance of all the ignorance. For me, Christian practice, as a discipline of following the teachings of Christ, has very little to do with confessing creeds, applying doctrines, or affiliating with any particular denomination, or even any religion at all. It does have to do with discipline and discipleship. To consider one's self a Christian, one must practice the teachings of Jesus. That is not the same as being knowledgeable about Christian history, tradition, and doctrine - or even adhering to them. One can "go through the motions" and never actually be practicing Christianity at all.

    I see Jesus more as an incarnation of the Buddha, rather than the sorcerer son of an all seeing all powerful Jewish deity sitting on his throne in the sky. His description of the Heavenly Kingdom is far more dynamic, idealistic, interactive and visionary than it is concrete, literal, and static. In my opinion. Jesus was very Buddha. In the Gospel narratives, Jesus' good news is that the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, and that this said kingdom is imminent, here and now, real, at hand - and the many accounts of Jesus describing what that Kingdom is like - such as the Beattitudes and the many parables - that message is not dependent on moral certainty or allegiance to any particular religious affiliation.
    December 21, 2012 at 12:29am · Like · 1
  • Arthur Shelly Oh, g'wan, their just a bunch of drama queens looking for something to bitch about... or they're unAmerican zealots who want to impose their religion on everyone else... unAmerican because the Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion and guarantees each of us the right to choose the religion that suits us... which may not be the zealot's.
    December 21, 2012 at 1:45am · Like
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie i didnt say you were doing some propaganda my sweet smile emoticon , i was merely stating that unfair criticism of any religion openly without objectivity creates stereotyping and to a youth who is at a cross road in choices hearing a one sided view to a particular religion may sway him/her from making the right choice for him or her. i am hily sensitive on extremity of opinions cos you never know when you can get carried away, so i keep my opinion about religeon and deal directly with the issue of the person. 

    funny thing that happens in Nigeria is that when you meet a guy the first thing he asks is "are you a christian?" i say "are you seeing the holyghost?" that kills any BS that comes from that person and we move on to understand our personalities. i am sure you know that many choose a religion not by free will at first but because of influence family or society, everyone is on a journey to faith through a particular religion, all roads lead to the city so i dont hold any judgement to which is better, i will support any on their path regardless of what it is, i focus more on discipline to the choice and if it happens that they want to switch i am again there to say it is ok. 

    i was left to make my own choice cos me parents didnt want to dictate, although they wished i did choose each from theirs, it went as far as its better to marry Black or white "i roll my eyes". i knew they were trying to make us avoid the chaos of extremes they went through. also luckily for me they come from different cultures and Russians "USSR" and Nigerians are not forceful people as a culture, we have half muslim and half christian population almost equally spread all through and everyone lives in peace, every second house is either muslim or christian, so i was left to my own demise.

    my way of dealing with choices is to look not at people but at the experience of faith by a particular person. i have Jehovahs witnesses as relatives and they have tried haaaaaaard to get me on their faith, i didnt agree with it but we still very tight. i dont go to church but i let my kids go every sunday cos we are living in a society and i dont want them to be extricated at this young age, when they grow they will ask me questions about why i am the way i am, for now let them mix. the pastor of the church tried i put him where he belongs peacefully. they dont understand Buddhism and i aint going to go through lecturing someone who isnt curious about the faith but more looking for loopholes to win his own soul, oh dear he tried to use the fear of the lord until i gave him a few sermons he never expected a Buddhist to know about christianity, so i was left alone. when i drop my kids i still see wonder in their eyes. i sit with any religion on fb and ask questions to know more about them, so they dont feel i dont care, i care but its the person i am more interested in, and me dont matter.

    i am likely to be persuaded to be friends by someone who looks and feels happy about him or herself than a religion. maybe the people you have met arnt happy so what ever comes out from them wouldnt persuade anyone. as the Christians say "out of the abundance of the heart the mind speaks" so as soon as i hear damnation i realise they are actually crucifying themselves and i try to help lol, if a muslim is trying to pluck out someones eye, i know he or she is angry and i deal with the anger and not try to quote the Karan. God for every one and man to himself my dear, i do peace and leave everyone to their misery lol except they want solace.

    no one can make you feel inferior without your consent, cos if you know you doing wrong you dont need a religion to tell you.

    in reference to your statement :"you just have to make sense and provide some proof " i say to this 1. i believe many suck at communication so sense is only available when both parties are wiling to engage in a discuss. and 2. faith dont need demanding of proof, it shows. a confident in himself person attracts without you even wanting to notice. there is an aura about that person i call it "being content" they dont doubt neither are they provoked, or searching validation through bringing another faith down. so when you see any believer making you feel bad he is in his own hell. Jesus never had issues with anyone he didnt go for the jews but for the gentiles metaphorically speaking. for all i feel he may have been a Buddhist loll
    December 21, 2012 at 2:29am · Like

  • Matt Powell Amanda - I didn't say that believing in Jesus makes you a Christian. I would not say such a thing. What I did say is that to be a Christian one must, at least, follow the teachings of Christ as one understands them. One should make every effort to understand what those teachings are if they want to practice Christianity. I wasn't trying to convince anybody to be one, or trying to sway anyone's personal beliefs, or even trying to define for anyone what they should believe... but if someone claims to be a Christian, I think they should be much more knowledgeable about their own faith tradition than what I see among the average Christians I generally meet out and about.
    December 21, 2012 at 3:06am · Like
  • Alsu Ekinadose Odemwingie
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